[BITList] Voting Rights for UK Citizens living abroad - Monday 9 May 2011, 8.00 pm, Room WS2 House of Commons

[John Feltham]

Begin forwarded message:






From: jlan4043 at bigpond.net.au
To: petermorriscpa at gmail.com; warren.ann at skymesh.net.au; jimbarmather at activ8.net.au; brian.e.havard at gmail.com; yeomanoz at gmail.com; pranced at optusnet.com.au; dian_elvin at hotmail.com; jstoner at internode.on.net; rainbowfarmau at yahoo.com.au
Subject: Re: Trans. : : Voting Rights for UK Citizens living abroad - Monday 9 May 2011, 8.00 pm, Room WS2 House of Commons
Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 13:32:32 +1000

I assume that it is a foregone conclusion that people living in another EU state will receive the vote with the main challenge remaining in how the UK Government ensures that they arrange matters so that votes will be received on time so they will count.  However I am uncertain that expats outside the EU will receive the same rights. I realise that this is an ECHR case but much of the discussion seems to relate to the EU.
 
Richard
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Morris
To: 'Ann Warren' ; Barbara Mather ; Brian Havard ; David Waterhouse ; derrick prance ; 'Dian Elvin' ; Jack Stoner ; 'Janice Lane' ; rainbowfarmau at yahoo.com.au
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 8:56 AM
Subject: FW: Trans. : : Voting Rights for UK Citizens living abroad - Monday 9 May 2011, 8.00 pm, Room WS2 House of Commons

 
 
From: John Markham [mailto:jmarkham at sympatico.ca] 
Sent: 04 May 2011 21:20
To: ericb0 at telkomsa.net; tony.bockman at primus.ca; altaplano at nucleus.com; brianlg1937 at gmail.com; petermorriscpa at gmail.com; ldraper2 at telus.net; jimtilley at bigpond.com; rainbowfarmau at yahoo.com.au
Subject: FW: Trans. : : Voting Rights for UK Citizens living abroad - Monday 9 May 2011, 8.00 pm, Room WS2 House of Commons

 
Annie and John Sykes are seeing if we can pick up some kind of story from this for our own purposes
.
John 

To: jmarkham at sympatico.ca; rennison311289 at yahoo.co.uk
Subject: Trans. : : Voting Rights for UK Citizens living abroad - Monday 9 May 2011, 8.00 pm, Room WS2 House of Commons
From: ssindamanoy at aol.com
CC: bob.gillespie.of.blackhall at gmail.com; sheilatelford at shaw.ca; Nicholas.Newman at skynet.be
Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 16:12:46 -0400

 
Everything is moving swiftly right now. See article below from today's Telegraph;

Kind regards, Sylvia



Expats could win back general election voting rights

Britons living abroad who have lost their right to vote may soon win it back after the European Court of Human Rights asked the government to explain why they can't take part in general elections.



Harry Shindler a 90-year-old Second World War veteran has taken his case to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg 

By Nick Pisa, Rome 7:00AM GMT 31 Jan 2011

29 Comments

Under the current voting legislation, Britons who live overseas automatically lose their right to take part in general elections if they have lived abroad for more than 15 years.

Up until then, they can continue to vote providing they are on a list of overseas electors, and ballot papers are usually sent in by post in the run up to election day.

But now the coalition government is facing a challenge from Harry Shindler, a 90-year-old Second World War veteran living in Italy who has taken his case to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

The court in turn has asked Britain to explain its actions. In its request it writes: "One of the major concerns of the Council of Europe is to preserve and strengthen democracy and civic rights of member states.

"Steps should therefore be taken to ensure that every national of a member state is able to exercise his political rights, at least in his country of origin, when he resides in another Council of Europe member state."

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It says: "Due regard should be given to the voting rights of citizens living abroad. The right to vote is an essential freedom in every democratic system.".

It comes just a few weeks after Prime Minister David Cameron revealed that 28,000 prisoners are to be given the right to vote.

The government revealed the change last year in response to a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights six years ago that a 140 year old blanket voting ban on convicted prisoners in British jails was unlawful.

It said that ruling was discriminatory and the documents relating to overseas voting rights also suggests that Strasbourg views the current rules for them in a similar way.

The request from Strasbourg on overseas voting rules must be returned by April 7 and Mr Shindler believes he and hundreds of other Italy-based ex pats who are backing him have a strong case.

Mr Shindler, moved to Italy in the early 1980s and fought there with the British Army during the Second World War, he is also the representative of the Italy Star Association, a group for ex servicemen who fought in the country.

Mr Shindler, who lives near Ascoli Piceno, said: "When I first raised this in a letter with Jack Straw a few years ago he wrote back and told me that Britons abroad could not vote as they had broken their ties with Britain.

"That's absolute nonsense. I and countless others have not broken our ties with Britain we still have many friends and families there and we visit as often as we can.

"What is also very important is that many pensioners get their pensions from Britain and the government looks after these pensions so we should have a say in the election of that government.

"If people who have broken the law, are in jail – and in my book broken their ties with society more than people who live abroad – can be given the vote then why can't we?

"I truly believe the government will lose this and to prevent any further embarrassment to them I suggest that they concede now rather than take the long winded route through the European Court of Human Rights."

A Cabinet Office spokesman said: "The Government has been notified of the application and will respond to the Court.

"The right for UK citizens resident overseas to vote has been subject to a time limit since its introduction in 1985, although Parliament has adjusted the length of that limit on occasion. The Government keeps this under review."

 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/8291266/Expats-could-win-back-general-election-voting-rights.html

Telegraph

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independent15

02/05/2011 10:16 PM

Could someone please explain? The European Convention and Protocol 11 only give access to individuals after domestic process has been exhausted. This has not happened has it?

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david119

02/02/2011 06:29 PM

Having the right to vote doesn't mean you can actually do so. Last time I tried, the London Borough of Lewisham sent the voting papers out so late to Berlin that it was virtually impossible to return them in time to be counted. If I tried where I am now on a Greek Island, the voting paper would certainly arrive some time after the election had been held.
Applying for a proxy vote seems the only solution.
Why can't I download the voting form ? At least then there would be a chance of sending it back in time. Better still why can't we have Internet voting or voting at a local consulate ?

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petermorris

02/02/2011 11:24 AM

EU citizens living in the UK are entitled to vote in local government elections and European elections but not General Elections.

If the converse is true, that UK citizens living in the EU are not entitled to vote in the general elections in their country of residence, then those people are completely dis-enfranchised, especially after 15 years when they lose the UK vote. From the UK, living in the EU but having no vote at all - having no say whatsoever in the democratic process.

That is wrong.

The same argument applies to people from the UK living in Commonwealth countries. They may well be totally dis-enfranchised regading the vote.

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petermorris

02/01/2011 10:41 AM

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3 people

Italians living in Australia not only retain the right to vote, they also have an elected representative sitting in the Italian Parliament as part of the Pacific area.

Most British people living abroad continue their links with the UK through receipt of the state pension, and some even continue to pay UK taxes, etc. so why should they be dis-enfranchised?

Let's face it, if the British Government moved into the 21st century and allowed secure voting on the internet in General Elections, many Brits living overseas could vote easily.

Any citizen of a Commonwealth Country is eligible to stand in a British General Election, so why shouldn't British people living in those countries retain the right to vote, even after 15 years?

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kennethes

02/01/2011 12:47 AM

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3 people

All in favour;

Many of the people who have forsaken Britain to live as an expat did so to escape the terrible mess successive governments have made of managing the country.

Issues that have encouraged British people to emigrate and choose an expat life:
Islamisation by stealth due to uncontrolled immigration. 
Destruction of the education system by dumbing down and social engineering.
The deterioration of lifestyle due to reduction in Law and order.
The pervasive over regulation by and subordination to the EU.
The endless staggering from one economic disaster to another.
The all pervasive political correctness.

The people who have chosen to emigrate are by and large the very people that Britain cannot afford to lose, and the incoming migrants by and large are people who Britain would be better off without.

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petermorris

02/02/2011 11:27 AM

And many of theose people find that the country to which they have moved has much the same problems regarding government policies and processes.

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Albert Gomperts

01/31/2011 04:01 PM

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2 people

I have lived in Belgium close to 40 years now. Belgium allowed me into higher education (something denied to me by the Caernarvonshire County Council) and ultimately I married and started my own business here. 
I have no desire to take Belgian nationality and continue to take an interest in the UK, yet unlike ex-pats of other nationalities I am still denied a vote. 
Why should I and others like me be disenfranchised? 
If I had remained in North Wales I would have been a burden on social services. 
Just because economic pressures have made me an exile does not mean that I have to be a political exile as well.

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oklahoma

01/31/2011 03:30 PM

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5 people

The country (UK) belongs to the British people and British politicians (the government) are servants of the British people, it does not matter were the British people live, if they move abroad they do so with their passports and their passports state and confirm that they are British citizen (not ex-British citizen)

Thus the government is still a servant of all the Brits living abroad and have no right to reprieve them of their basic citizenship rights and as a result unable to elect a British government, which is important to them, since Whitehall does still control several aspects of their lives whiles living abroad.

If the the current coalition government does not alter this nonsense state of affairs, then the ECHR will force them to, and that will be rather embarrassing. 

So come on "Dave & Nick" get cracking to get this done.

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sick1

01/31/2011 10:36 PM

oklahoma
Sorry sport. The British government are servants to their E.U. puppet masters and no one else. The electorate should bare this in mind the next time that they vote for pro-E.U. politicians.

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johnnyduke

02/01/2011 04:14 PM

If that is right then Nick and Dave should find it even easier to comply with Oklahoma's request

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michaelnicholas

01/31/2011 11:21 AM

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4 people

I live in the province of Madrid. I am allowed to vote in municipal elections BUT not in the regional elections, neither am I allowed to vote in Spanish general elections. I would like to keep my British nationality and be allowed to vote either in all those elections that a Spanish citizen of Madrid could vote in because I live here - and have done so for 40 years -OR be allowed to vote in British general elections because I am British.

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John Hirst

01/31/2011 10:20 AM

I note that Shindler's list includes "If people who have broken the law, are in jail – and in my book broken their ties with society more than people who live abroad – can be given the vote then why can't we?".

Ex-pats have exiled themselves in the same way it can be said that prisoners have voluntarily committed crimes and therefore ended up in prison.

However in both examples I do not accept the broken ties argument. In prison prisoners remain part of society albeit not at large, and have ties with family and friends who can vote and this is the same with ex-pats.

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petermorris

02/02/2011 01:52 PM

MPs who have broken the law and imprisoned can still remain as MPs as long as the sentence is less than 12 months. What hypocrisy to deny the vote to those prisoners in similar circumstances!

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Aaron Lippe

01/31/2011 09:50 AM

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6 people

The rights of expats to vote started to be restricted when the payment of "true value" pensions became an issue.
Labour were keen to gag the expat vote as most people left Britain because of them.

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kennethes

02/01/2011 02:24 AM

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1 person

There used to be a very fair standard rule of 
" No Taxation without representation"

Expat Brits are subject to raxation of any British income -

They should be given the vote or else not taxed - fair enough.

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johnnyduke

02/01/2011 04:11 PM

Whilst I agree with most of the points raised by other contributors on this subject, it is yours that reach the crux of the matter.

I am in receipt of a Government pension, therefore it is taxed in the UK and I do not pay income tax here in France. I do pay the local fonciere and d'habitation taxes (council)

After 15 years the Government will still be taking my money, but they will not allow me to vote. 

Can anyone explain to me please how that is fair and not an abuse of my human rights.

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Bearz

01/31/2011 09:28 AM

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1 person

In a way Mr Shindler is right that he should have the right to cast his vote because he is affected by the day-to-day decisions of the British Government who do control the payment of pensions to ex-Patriot Britons living abroad but I would question the right of ALL ex-Patriot Britons having the chance to influence the Government of the Day simply because they are Britons who have moved abroad and , by having been absent for (currently) over 15 years, exhibit a complete detachment from their mother country

There has to be a cut-off point in time or else Britain’s tax decisions could be influenced by emigrants from Britain who neither pay taxes into Britain nor receive any benefit from Britain other than to hold a passport.

It is also true to say that the European Court are missing out on the bigger picture. Emigrants from Britain do not only go to Spain and, in the case of Mr Shindler, to Italy. Do the indigenous British really want to give the vote ex-Patriots who have emigrated to Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc.? Where does it end?

We could end up with a ludicrous situation that children of ex-Patriots living in Australia who were born there but have dual nationality because their parents are "British" could cast a vote and decide a government even though they have never ever set foot in the UK. 

I think the critical issue is that citizens of a nation state should determine their government but if you give up being a citizen by moving to another nation state then your right to vote moves to the nation you become a citizen of – not the nation you just happen to have a passport issued.

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petermorris

02/02/2011 11:33 AM

All citizens of Commonwealth countires are entitled to stand in UK General Elections already. What is so wrong in allowing British people who have migrated to those countries to retain the vote? Many will be entitled to full or part state pensions based on their National Insurance contributions and so retain a link with the UK through that, and many pay UK taxes. Why shouldn't they have a say? 

They are also perfectly entitled to return to the UK at any time, so why shouldn't they have a say?

People who are not citizens of their adopted country cannot vote there and if they lose the right to vote in the UK, they have no say in the democratic process at all. That seems wrong to me.

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Bearz

02/02/2011 12:55 PM

I am not saying that anyone who returns to the UK cannot have the vote reinstated but since when have citizen of Britain NOT been able to vote in any EU country where they have taken up residency? 

It is also true to say my argument extends to those Brits who have permanently emigrated to foreign shores outside of Europe.

Foreign EU citizens who live in Britain get to vote in UK local and general elections as (a) residents and (b) through EU reciprocal Law. Perhaps this is the fundamental right that should be a privilege to be sought for ex-Pats living in the Commonwealth nations, the USA or other global destinations?

What I am saying is that it is wrong that someone who does not live in the UK should retain the vote after 15 years and clearly severing their ties with Britain. A foreign EU citizen NOT living in the UK cannot vote in Britain so why should someone living in Italy (where they should get the reciprocal EU right to vote in their domicile nation) still get the right to vote in TWO locations?

That still does not detract from the fact that I have some sympathy for Mr Shindler as his pension is still managed within the UK and he therefore has a moral right to express an interest in the government that may decide to interfere with his received pension. 

Perhaps the question should be whether, if the EU IS such a good thing, then Mr Shindler’s UK-subsidised pension should be managed by the EU as he has taken advantage of freedom of movement under EU rules and his UK pension should not suffer as a result of that EU freedom? 

If that were the case then, logically, he would not give a fig about having the vote in the UK as he is no longer a UK citizen just a UK Passport holder and his pension no longer an excuse to have him seek the right to have a vote in Italy AND in the UK - Twice the rights I have as a UK-based citizen?

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petermorris

02/02/2011 01:50 PM

You are wrong on one point. EU citizens are ***NOT*** allowed to vote in UK General Elections. I suppose the presumption is that they would still be entitled to a vote in the country of their nationality.

Hence my contention that British people living in other EU countries will not be allowed to vote there.

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Bearz

02/02/2011 02:30 PM

After 5 years residency in the UK, an EU citizen domiciled in the UK may apply for naturalisation by virtue of permanent residency. If he or she is lucky they might only miss out on ONE General Election.

I give you that paltry 5 years for any EU Citizen to gain naturalisation in the UK and raise you the 15 'very-substantive and does he still speak English' years that Mr Shindler has been living in Italy. 

Its about time he became Eyetaliano and got the General Election Vote he deserves ... in Italy!

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kennethes

02/01/2011 12:56 AM

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1 person

Becoming a citizen of another country entails more than just moving there, one has to be eligible to apply for citizenship and actually go through a naturalisation ceremony.

Currently such people are entitled to retain their British Citizenship, unless there is a law passed to strip people of there British Citizenship if they become naturalised and take on the citizenship of another country.

If the Government were to do this then they should require from immigrants to Britain, as a prerequiste to becoming a British Citizen to renounce all other citizenships.

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Bearz

02/01/2011 08:27 AM

Being a passport holder is one thing, being eligible to vote is another issue altogether I would suggest.

Prisoners of Her Majesty may be British Passport holders, may be considered British citizens and indeed have paid taxes (albeit that they receive more than they give during their incarceration) but the majority of indigenous 'citizens of Her Majesty' (I suspect) believe that giving rapists, murders and people convicted of other serious crimes the vote is one 'human right too far'.

My argument is not that Mr Shindler is not entitled to determine the complexion of the Government because they can rule on his British Pension but that, if someone does move to another country and lives there for more than 15 years then they should be more interested in the government of their adopted nation and where they should be paying taxes as their loyalty and connection with their mother country will have become somewhat tenuous due to 15 years (the current limitation) being a long, long time to still be entitled to call oneself a British citizen. In my views 'being there and participating as a citizen' is part of deserving the entitlement of the right to vote.

Live here and have the vote here; live there and seek to have the vote there by all means. If one slopes off to another country then do so by all means but if one leaves us for better pastures - enjoy those pastures by all means - but leave us to decide on the straw of our own pigsty.

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polly

01/31/2011 09:21 AM

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2 people

about time we were out of the EU, prisoners, CRIMINALS!!!
People who do not abide by the laws of the country, can vote!
similarly if you don`t live in the country, what right do you have to vote as to how it will be run!
Didn`t Cameron promise us the over turning of the Human Rights law.. It should ALL start with responsibilty...

I am going to stop reading the news

oh Lord, please help us.... as we are completely helpless here.

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kevin500

01/31/2011 08:24 AM

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8 people

As an outsider looking in, (Canadian) it appears that Britain is on the road to scrapping all it's current laws and will have to adopt laws that are acceptable to EU standards. There is no room for nation-specific or historic laws apparently.
The EU is a colossal mistake, soon Britain will be just another cookie-cutter country that spends more money on the EU than on British government itself.
I believe that a person should reside in the country if they want to vote in national elections. They should have to suffer under their elected officials the same way the rest of us do.

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secrettenerife

02/04/2011 06:39 AM

From twitter

Expats could win back general election voting rights: "Under the current voting legislation, Britons... http://twurl.nl/xv70hv #tenerife



chaostocosmos

02/04/2011 06:29 AM

From twitter

Expats could win back general election voting rights: "Under the current voting legislation, Britons who live ... http://twurl.nl/a46rd0



theelectionblog

02/03/2011 02:58 AM

From twitter

RT @NoreenBowden: Oh look. The European Court of Human Rights is asking the UK why their expats lose the right to vote. http://bit.ly/eEyDH6



danieldunne

02/02/2011 10:40 PM

From twitter

ECHR says nationals living abroad should be given right to vote: http://bit.ly/eEyDH6 Thanks @noreenbowden



NoreenBowden

02/02/2011 10:34 PM

From twitter

@danieldunne @gerardwyer Thanks, guys! Sorry about that. http://bit.ly/eEyDH6



NoreenBowden

02/02/2011 10:33 PM

From twitter

Wrong link on story on UK expats in European Ct of Human Rights seeking right to vote from abroad. http://bit.ly/eEyDH6 #ge11



NoreenBowden

02/02/2011 10:15 PM

From twitter

Oh look. The European Court of Human Rights is asking the UK why their expats lose the right to vote. http://bit.ly/eEyDH6



russellvjward

02/02/2011 01:32 AM

From twitter

RT @expatexplorer: British #expats could win back their voting rights http://bit.ly/e2It2L

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